Smooth 30 fps for YouTube

Discussion in 'FRAPS Help Requests' started by RobiePAX, Jul 21, 2013.

  1. RobiePAX

    RobiePAX Site Contributor Well-Known Member

    This is a tricky question to describe, so don't get surprised if you'll get confused. How to get as smooth 30 fps for YouTube as possible? I might be just paranoid here, but sometimes when experimenting rendering with different video settings I feel like I get a different result depending if source file was recorded at 30 fps or 60 fps. And I'm not really a "technical guy", I don't have or know any software that would analyze whenever or not my paranoia is true.

    I get the feeling that recording gameplay in 30 fps, rendering the file in 30 fps and uploading it on YouTube is bad... I don't know, I feel like I'm having a slight headache watching it as if it's in 20-25 fps actually. Not to mention annoying fact that when you record in 30 fps Fraps quite often locks framerate to 30 fps as well, which doesn't happen when you record with higher framerate. So that's another reason why I dislike 30 fps option. I recall Shukaku said in the past that he doesn't record in 30 fps either for this reason, that it doesn't look so smooth... or it was someone else.

    So what option would give the best smooth 30 fps? There are so many options and with my limited knowledge I don't know which are bad, which are good, or which would make no difference at all. For example:

    1. Recording in 30 fps, rendering and uploading to YouTube in 30 fps
    2. Recording in 60 fps, rendering and uploading to YouTube in 30 fps
    3. Recording in 60 fps, rendering and uploading to YouTube in 60 fps (end result will be same as 2nd step, but would it be smoother?)
    4. Recording in 50 fps, rendering and uploading to YouTube in 30 fps (I know that uploading 50 fps file would drop it to 25 fps, so I don't even consider that option).
    5. Really stupid theory, but does slightly speeding up the video makes it look like the video is at higher framerate?

    Are there any programs that would let to check if the video has become less smooth between 1st and 2nd option for example, or not? Trusting eyes rather than numbers is quite stupid...
  2. raffriff

    raffriff Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    Down-converting frame rates requires either frame blending or frame removal. When converting for 60 to 30, frame removal looks OK (blending might look better depending on the source and on the blending quality) but going from 50 to 30 results in stuttering motion - and headaches. 50 to 30 with frame blending might look alright, depending on the blending quality. I think I would go from 50 to 25, assuming your monitor can play 25fps sources smoothly. That's another issue.

    YouTube will do frame removal because it's faster. If you need frame blending you need to do it yourself (in Premiere, for example)

    Even better than frame blending is motion interpolated frame rate conversion (youtube search). There are special framerate doubling programs which try to use motion interpolation to create new frames in between the existing ones; I've tried some Avisynth scripts but haven't been completely happy with anything so far. EDIT - Interframe looks really good converting from 15 to 30fps; someone should try 50 to 30...

    Testing smoothness by eye is actually the best way to go, but choose a test video that makes unsmooth motion obvious - long camera pans are good for this.

    Just curious, what is your monitor's normal refresh rate? A quick way to check is to run Frafs Test Pattern with vsync on (there's a start menu icon just for this) and read the FPS display. Allow 10 seconds for settling.
    RobiePAX likes this.
  3. Thalmor Wizard

    Thalmor Wizard Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    I've found that uploading footage in 30fps is not as smooth as uploading the footage in 60fps and leaving YT to do stuff with it: by doing that, I've found the footage to be massively smoother and better to watch than if I recorded at 30fps. That's why I tend to just upload everything at 60fps (or if I'm doing Skyrim, I upload at 50fps to cover the random jumps that are made up to 50fps) since it just looks smoother on YT.
    raffriff likes this.
  4. RobiePAX

    RobiePAX Site Contributor Well-Known Member

    I'm not entirely sure how to use this Test Pattern, or specifically how to turn on Vsync. When I turn on the program is shows 4700 FPS, I assume that's with Vsync off.


    Also, I'm a bit confused what is this InterFrame meant to be doing? I mean yes, it turns 30 fps video playback into 60 fps interestingly enough but it does so only for me. Only for my playback. It won't affect how other people will see it on YouTube.

    Wouldn't that be even worse than recording at 30 fps, since you'll get 25 fps when YouTube processes it?
  5. Thalmor Wizard

    Thalmor Wizard Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    Nope, it looks actually pretty good. Have a look and see what you think:
    RobiePAX likes this.
  6. raffriff

    raffriff Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    > I'm not entirely sure how to use this Test Pattern, or specifically how to turn on Vsync
    The start menu should have a Frafs Utilities group, and under that a FRAFS Test Pattern (vsync) icon.

    > yes, it turns 30 fps video playback into 60 fps interestingly enough but it does so only for me.
    You would have to re-encode the video at the new frame rate. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it; the only reason I did is because I think it *might* do a good job of 50 to 30 fps conversion. But even if it did do a better job, it takes too much time. Best stick to 2:1 framerate reduction ratio (60 to 30, 50 to 25)
    RobiePAX likes this.
  7. video relies heavily on math and does not like odd numbers. Stick to the 2:1 ratio on framerates. use 60fps if there is a lot of action and movement, but typically 30 should be fine for most work. 50 and 25? well that's shot in the foot and a relic of television's past, specifically the PAL broadcast standard, which worked best in areas serviced by 50hz power (notice the math at work? 50/25fps for 50hz and 60/30fps for 60hz)

    Now the killer here is all this stuff is out the window with the death of the CRT, for web you can do whatever you want without having to respect broadcast values, that said however 60/30 is a smoother rate than 50/25 and 60/30 is what most people should use unless they are recording native 50fps footage (really recording, not frapsing)

    the real issue here is youtube and what they do to your video when they convert it to flash or the html5 container formats. the compression is massive, but a 30fps source should end up as a 30fps flash and a 60fps source should downconvert to 30.

    I'd stick with the 30 -30, if the action is fast then do 60 and drop it into a 30fps timeline and export.
    research the best source for YT too, my personal rule of thumb is "if its not a PITA to upload it, its not good enough" and I tend to stick with h264 at a decent bitrate (20-25mbps) at 30fps and the only real issues I have is the occasional stuttery pan, but that's due to the AVCHD source and not the output
    RobiePAX likes this.
  8. Thalmor Wizard

    Thalmor Wizard Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    Don't convert a video recorded at 60fps to 30fps in editing, it causes major stuttering of the footage and just looks like a pile of crap afterwards :lol:

    As I pointed out above, recording, rendering and uploading in higher frame rates causes better output on YouTube than recording, rendering and uploading in low frame rates. =]
    RobiePAX likes this.
  9. CS does it just fine, I convert frames in premiere and AE without stutter issues. A good NLE is designed to do this sort of thing, and a crappy NLE will do a crappy job
    I'd rather let my NLE do the work rather than trusting it to YTs automated scripts, but that's a personal preference, also I don't do game videos which may have different issues due to oddball framerates coming out of the game client, but that's out of my realm as I work with camera video mostly
    I guess you do whatever works best for your workflow in this situation

    I will however give this a try next time I UL something, just to see if it applies to my gig
    RobiePAX and raffriff like this.
  10. Thalmor Wizard

    Thalmor Wizard Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    Most of the advice provided here in regards to frame rates and rendering is generally directed to people who make gameplay videos, so people here are advised not to be converting their frame rates during the editing/rendering process. :)
  11. RobiePAX

    RobiePAX Site Contributor Well-Known Member

    Found it, it's 60.0
    So... how exactly do I use this Interframer to re-encode a video? It looks more like a plugin than encoding software :|
  12. raffriff

    raffriff Moderator Staff Member Site Contributor

    Interframe is an Avisyth script plugin. Basically, you
    * Install Avisynth if it isn't installed already (it may be installed as part of StaxRip for instance)
    * Install Interframe (IIRC, just unzip into the Avisynth Plugins folder)
    * Create a script (plain text file)
    AviSource(<path to your AVI file>)
    Interframe(NewNum=30, NewDen=1)
    * Open the script as you would open any AVI file. This works in many Windows players and editors but not all.

    The script above reads any AVI file and converts it to 30 fps. Here's a quick test, comparing the three methods both for 50>30 and for 15>30. Need to do more tests with real world footage, but Frafs Test Pattern with the /travelbar option is a pretty good torture test. I don't see Interframe looking any better than blend for 50>30 (for the blend test, actually I did 50>60 using blend, then 60>30 by dropping alternate frames). Interframe does look best for 15>30.
    RobiePAX likes this.
  13. Hi, I only read your original post and I thought that this would show you something.

    This is a video by someone who does PVP in Minecraft, he records at 120fps lock and edits in Sony Vegas.

    The video looks really smooth and motion-blurred.

    RobiePAX likes this.

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